Lines You Don't Get

NeverTrustAJunkie wrote:

jzancan wrote:

I think Brian just sings it in odd timing for the meaning.

While it comes out as:

"Are you man enough to lay here?"
She said "I'm man enough my baby..."

I think it would be written out as

"Are you man enough to lay here," she said.
"I'm man enough my baby..."

WHY DID I NOT THINK OF THIS.

This blew my mind at first.....but when you go back and listen to the song the pause between "lay here" and "she said" makes this very unlikely. It's clearly two separate lines.

Well here's how it appears on the website.

Maybe "Woman" didn't fit the cadence/melody/whatever the terminology is the way he wanted.

I personally think its more interesting the way it is. A man asking his woman if she's "man enough" is not exactly politically correct but it implies a harshness in the relationship.

What I wanna discuss is, what exactly does he mean by "Are you man (tough) enough to lay here?" The first verse he's talking about first encounters with this girl, second verse he's dreaming about her (so is he not with her?) and in the bridge he sets up the carnival imagery and for some reason is apologizing. I personally think that the chorus basically is him seeing she is damaged and scarred, just like him, and then him asking "are you tough enough to deal with me / my flaws?" Maybe the "apologies" and "the night being lonely" next to him in the bridge means that she ultimately was not.

I had seen the song as very romantic, the coming together of two betrayed, lonely souls healing each other and finally being able to fall in love again. Kind of like the Horrible Crowes concept.

Verse One: Kind of sets the scene, especially "momma always knew I'd find I a girl like you, but me I never believed". So obviously he is happy and in love with this girl. And "I've been so lonely I can't imagine that kind of sympathy"- he's been destroyed by a girl and couldn't imagine every getting over it.

Chorus: The chorus basically backs up the idea, except it twists and the man is realising that the woman has exactly the same issues (scars) as he has and the same broken heart. And then the 'Man enough to lay here part', I guess he is saying are you tough enough to fall in love again after everything that has happened to you.

Verse Two: So yeah, he is just gushing about how amazing this new girl is. She's like something from his dreams, or favourite song. And at the end he reiterates how beautiful she is, and how much of a mess he is/was.

Bridge: So as I said that was the one bit I didn't get, but it does make more sense now. On the "it took years my baby, just to come clean"... I don't see that as guilt. I think he means 'come clean' in the same sense as coming off a drug. Because he is addicted to the girl that has broken his heart. Anyone who has been in that situation will get what I mean here, sometimes it's literally the same symptoms as a drug addicting coming clean. And all the streetlights are a reminder, when you have had your heart broken, everything reminds you of that person, and 'the apologies'...well, I think that is the girl apologising to him, but fake. She is apologising for betraying him, but in my head he is saying 'all those apologies..." while shaking his head in disbelief because she still always destroys him. And then he reiterates again how lonely he was.

So in my mind it's a happy ending song. Which is why the fact he says 'man enough' is kind of annoying, because it's a bit of a rough way to talk to a girl, and I always saw the song as romantic.


This thread has kinda been hijacked by Blue Dahlia .

Ghost wrote:

Bridge: So as I said that was the one bit I didn't get, but it does make more sense now. On the "it took years my baby, just to come clean"... I don't see that as guilt. I think he means 'come clean' in the same sense as coming off a drug. Because he is addicted to the girl that has broken his heart. Anyone who has been in that situation will get what I mean here, sometimes it's literally the same symptoms as a drug addicting coming clean. And all the streetlights are a reminder, when you have had your heart broken, everything reminds you of that person, and 'the apologies'...well, I think that is the girl apologising to him, but fake. She is apologising for betraying him, but in my head he is saying 'all those apologies..." while shaking his head in disbelief because she still always destroys him. And then he reiterates again how lonely he was.

So in my mind it's a happy ending song. Which is why the fact he says 'man enough' is kind of annoying, because it's a bit of a rough way to talk to a girl, and I always saw the song as romantic.

I like your take on the bridge. I think that's the most confusing/ambiguous part of the song and your interpretation definitely seems plausible. And I agree with your overall interpretation of the song as well.

As for the "man enough" thing. I can't speak for all girls but as a girl, I don't consider it a rough way to talk to a girl at all. I think it's great because he's using a term that normally just associated with men. In a way, I see it as a way of respecting girls as equals rather than feeling the need to change your terminology to distinguish us as being very different.

I don't take offense to him saying that either. It's just an expression. To me, he's trying to say it's going to take a strong woman to deal with him and his demons.

Not that I think the line is in any way a Springsteen reference but this dicussion reminds me of a great line from Mary Queen of Arkansas: "You're not man enough for me to hate or woman enough for kissing."

Shrewsbury_Stars wrote:

Not that I think the line is in any way a Springsteen reference but this dicussion reminds me of a great line from Mary Queen of Arkansas: "You're not man enough for me to hate or woman enough for kissing."

i agree with that. i do like a nice mannish type woman every once in a while. sturdy like livestock

Kind of like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSL4cmFW_GU

Yeah, I really think the "man enough" is just Brian's institutionalized misogyny showing through again. To clarify what I mean before everyone starts yelling at me, Brian is by no means a misogynist. Listen to him for a few minutes and you can tell he thinks that anyone who wants to treat people differently based on race/sex/orientation is very very wrong. But due to the culture he grew up in, he still has some old school notions with it comes to political correctness (see referring to Tom Gabel/Laura Grace as "he". Listening to him it clearly wasn't 'oh I'm going to intentionally use the wrong pronoun because I begrudgenly disagree with this" it was just "oh, this is actually new to me and while I fully support it I never actually learned the proper thing to say"). This is just more of the same -- he's certainly not trying to reinforce gender stereotypes, he's just used to a particular way of talking/speaking that has been ingrained in society for generations.

Sure it does kinda give the wrong impression at first glance, but part of what I like about Brian is that he tends to just say what's on his mind instead of being caught up in making sure everything is politically correct (or worse, making a big deal about how everything he says is politically correct). Maybe it wouldn't hurt for him to stop and think a little before putting it into his songs, but ultimately its really just a minor blemish on an otherwise amazing song.

I don't think of it as a blemish at all. I also don't think the other examples you gave should be read into so deeply, but that's just me.

Nothing wrong with man enough but what's with the line "even the night was lonely next to me"? Surely that would mean he's so happy he makes the night look lonely? If I said "even steph is innocent next to you", you wouldn't think I was calling you or steph innocent, would you?

I don't think it's a blemish either. And Brian's one of the least misogynistic men I've ever encountered (accidentally or otherwise). Why are the boys on this thread having such an issue with this wording when the two girls on here are cool with it? haha.

Laurence, I see whatcha did there.

I've got a lyric that I don't get from Teenage Rebellion:

"I used to wonder all the time if you made it out,
to the point of a ritual"

or this line from Orphans:
"And now my lights, they never go down
they waltz the moon and stars for me now"

NeverTrustAJunkie wrote:

I don't think of it as a blemish at all. I also don't think the other examples you gave should be read into so deeply, but that's just me.

But like, the notion that manliness == toughness is dangerous. It reinforces the negative stereotype that if you are "tough" you are somehow less of a man and therefore less of a person.

There are a lot of deep societal problems around preconceived gender roles. I'm not saying Brian should try and fix those problems. He should just continue to write his music. I'm also not saying that Brian is racist/sexist/insensitive towards these problems. Part of the reason its a real issue is that a lot of the problems are just so ingrained into society and culture that no one ever stops to go "why is it that we're saying manliness = toughness". Its a problem with society that manifests itself in some of Brian's lyrics, not a problem with Brian's lyrics.

StitchesOnTheRadio wrote:

Why are the boys on this thread having such an issue with this wording when the two girls on here are cool with it? haha.

I take umbrage at your use of the terms "boys" and "girls." Please moderate your unintentional misogyny.

CluckyB wrote:

NeverTrustAJunkie wrote:

I don't think of it as a blemish at all. I also don't think the other examples you gave should be read into so deeply, but that's just me.

But like, the notion that manliness == toughness is dangerous. It reinforces the negative stereotype that if you are "tough" you are somehow less of a man and therefore less of a person.

There are a lot of deep societal problems around preconceived gender roles. I'm not saying Brian should try and fix those problems. He should just continue to write his music. I'm also not saying that Brian is racist/sexist/insensitive towards these problems. Part of the reason its a real issue is that a lot of the problems are just so ingrained into society and culture that no one ever stops to go "why is it that we're saying manliness = toughness". Its a problem with society that manifests itself in some of Brian's lyrics, not a problem with Brian's lyrics.

I'm taking a class on this exact topic right now so I understand what you're talking about and I agree and respect your view. I hadn't considered the negative stereotype for guys (oops). Where I still disagree is on Brian's use of the expression. I think it's more forward thinking to not give the gender in that phrase any sort of importance. He does that (intentionally or not) by assigning it to a woman. He makes toughness a characteristic of a person not a gender. But all in all I think he used it because it's an expression and of all the lyrics in all the world that might reflect gender inequality this one is the least of my worries.

Anyway we should probably stop derailing this thread. Is there a separate thread for this song?

Hahaha Shrewsbury_Stars

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't take offense to that expression, and I don't really care what his background may or may not be that lead him to use that language. I'm a girl and I'd probably ask a girl if she was man enough.

StitchesOnTheRadio wrote:

I've got a lyric that I don't get from Teenage Rebellion:

"I used to wonder all the time if you made it out,
to the point of a ritual"

This entire song is a mystery to me. But that particular part (I thought it was "you used to wonder?"), I'd think he was saying the person was constantly second guessing him/herself so much that it became a ritual.

StitchesOnTheRadio wrote:

"And now my lights, they never go down
they waltz the moon and stars for me now"

I take it that "lights" are his thoughts and they keep him up all night?

StitchesOnTheRadio wrote:

Laurence, I see what you did there

No I'm not fucking around I really have a problem with that line.

Also I hear ppl saying how being a woman means being strong all the time. Surely enforcing a status quo where it's alright to equate being a woman with being strong but not with a man is itself mysoginistic?

Labhras wrote:

Nothing wrong with man enough but what's with the line "even the night was lonely next to me"? Surely that would mean he's so happy he makes the night look lonely? If I said "even steph is innocent next to you", you wouldn't think I was calling you or steph innocent, would you?

I think he meant that he is so bad at communicating and he alienates people he's with so everyone feels lonely even when they're with him

eagles1139 wrote:

Labhras wrote:

Nothing wrong with man enough but what's with the line "even the night was lonely next to me"? Surely that would mean he's so happy he makes the night look lonely? If I said "even steph is innocent next to you", you wouldn't think I was calling you or steph innocent, would you?

I think he meant that he is so bad at communicating and he alienates people he's with so everyone feels lonely even when they're with him

but would the night not seem like a lonely thing anyway? surely if you say "even the night" you're suggesting that the night is normally noticeably NOT lonely?

NeverTrustAJunkie wrote:

StitchesOnTheRadio wrote:

I've got a lyric that I don't get from Teenage Rebellion:

"I used to wonder all the time if you made it out,
to the point of a ritual"

This entire song is a mystery to me. But that particular part (I thought it was "you used to wonder?"), I'd think he was saying the person was constantly second guessing him/herself so much that it became a ritual.

oouuhh, is it really "you made it out" ?

haha, i always understood "I used to wonder all the time if you made love,
to the point of a ritual"

and this line made the song for me, because it's this typical gaslight picture of a mysterious, dark lover, who may even make love to a point of ritual

Labhras wrote:

eagles1139 wrote:

Labhras wrote:

Nothing wrong with man enough but what's with the line "even the night was lonely next to me"? Surely that would mean he's so happy he makes the night look lonely? If I said "even steph is innocent next to you", you wouldn't think I was calling you or steph innocent, would you?

I think he meant that he is so bad at communicating and he alienates people he's with so everyone feels lonely even when they're with him

but would the night not seem like a lonely thing anyway? surely if you say "even the night" you're suggesting that the night is normally noticeably NOT lonely?

I agree with your interpretation but I don't think "even the night" implies that the night is normally lonely (although I see how you got there), I think the opposite. Like the night is already lonely by nature but the guy in the song is so lonely or so isolated that he's even able to make loneliness feel lonely. Does that make any sense? haha.

Hanswurst wrote:

NeverTrustAJunkie wrote:

StitchesOnTheRadio wrote:

I've got a lyric that I don't get from Teenage Rebellion:

"I used to wonder all the time if you made it out,
to the point of a ritual"

This entire song is a mystery to me. But that particular part (I thought it was "you used to wonder?"), I'd think he was saying the person was constantly second guessing him/herself so much that it became a ritual.

oouuhh, is it really "you made it out" ?

haha, i always understood "I used to wonder all the time if you made love,
to the point of a ritual"

and this line made the song for me, because it's this typical gaslight picture of a mysterious, dark lover, who may even make love to a point of ritual

Not sure where I got those lyrics so I can't say for sure if they're 100% right, but it's the wrong number of syllables for "made love". What ever he says there has 3 parts.

Quote :

As for the "man enough" thing. I can't speak for all girls but as a girl, I don't consider it a rough way to talk to a girl at all. I think it's great because he's using a term that normally just associated with men. In a way, I see it as a way of respecting girls as equals rather than feeling the need to change your terminology to distinguish us as being very different.

I can see what you are saying there. It's not that its particularly sexist just find it an odd way to talk to a woman! Especially in the context of a romantic song. But then, it isn't exactly a love song.

I actually have one...in Misery the line...

"What, you think I'd forget? I remember each and every lonesome night long/lone"

Firstly, which do you hear it as? And secondly, if it's the second, why repeat the word again? I personally always heard it as long, but I know some have heard it as lone.